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          <h1 class="arti-title">【新华访谈】郑炳林：敦煌学正青春</h1>

          <h3 class="arti-title"></h3>

          <p class="arti-metas"><span class="arti-source">来源：admin</span><span class="arti-update">发布时间：2023-09-04 11:12</span><span class="arti-views">访问量：<span class="WP_VisitCount" >17274</span></span></p>

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<section><section><h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; visibility: visible; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;"><span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); visibility: visible;"><strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; visibility: visible;"><span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; visibility: visible; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">新华网：</span></strong><span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; visibility: visible; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;"> 作为敦煌学的领路人，研究敦煌、研究敦煌遗书已经成了您的历史使命。为什么是敦煌？</span></span></h2>
<h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; visibility: visible; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">
<strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; visibility: visible;"><span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; visibility: visible;">郑炳林：</span></strong><span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; visibility: visible;">我想这是一个历史的选择。</span>
</h2>
<h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; visibility: visible; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; text-align: center;"><img class="rich_pages wxw-img" width="100%" src="https://mmbiz.qpic.cn/mmbiz_jpg/qYctaqVmvuAxpG7gfiaHA9eb0671FWFu7zIqtb67OibYhSg8tjbiaAdPMOmC1EcWRlQPxFcNpeib4TNuCXPpKrviaDw/640?wx_fmt=jpeg&amp;tp=wxpic&amp;wxfrom=5&amp;wx_lazy=1&amp;wx_co=1" alt="图片" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; vertical-align: middle; width: 677px; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; height: auto !important; visibility: visible !important;"></h2></section></section><section><p style="text-indent: 2em;"><span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">我是1982年留校任教的，那个时候正赶上改革开放，迎来了学术的春天。快毕业时，兰州大学要开展敦煌学研究，需要留人，我就选择了留校。当时兰州以西我基本没去过，敦煌长什么样也不知道，但是我就觉得干啥事要有个执着的劲头。留校之后，也不知道怎么进行研究，就是一点一点钻研，也感觉要研究的问题越来越多。实际上真正了解敦煌的地位，就是季羡林先生说的敦煌是四大文明的交汇点。我们在接触敦煌文献、敦煌艺术等这些文物的时候，越发感觉到敦煌就是多种文化交流、交往、交汇的一个地点，也是中央王朝经营西域地区的一个点，还是中华文明走向世界的一个点。</span></p></section><section><section><h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">
<span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">新华网：</strong></span>还记得第一次到敦煌是什么感受吗？ </h2>
<h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">
<strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">郑炳林：</strong>第一次到敦煌感觉到非常震撼。</h2></section></section><section><section><section><img class="rich_pages wxw-img" width="100%" src="https://mmbiz.qpic.cn/mmbiz_jpg/qYctaqVmvuAxpG7gfiaHA9eb0671FWFu7fqZ7oAomqD5UmezFJVpiakIOg5gfhRdkuFC1AopI5q05iarJw8KYypWA/640?wx_fmt=jpeg&amp;tp=wxpic&amp;wxfrom=5&amp;wx_lazy=1&amp;wx_co=1" alt="图片" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; vertical-align: middle; height: auto !important; width: 677px; visibility: visible !important;"></section></section></section><section><p style="text-indent: 2em;"><span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">第一次到敦煌是1983年，中国敦煌吐鲁番学会成立之后我们要编一个会刊，需要到敦煌研究院，当时叫敦煌艺术研究所，去采集照片。那时候敦煌基本没游客，还正好是冬天，只有一个讲解员带着我们两个人，看了近100个洞窟。以前上学的时候，段文杰先生给我们讲《敦煌艺术概论》，谈莫高窟，都是在书本上、在黑板上、在教室里，没有真正接触过石窟。后来到了敦煌，一进去才知道石窟原来这么漂亮。但是每一个石窟体现的内容，壁画体现的内容，石窟为什么这么修建，当时还是不知道，只是感觉到很震撼。就这样带着一种好奇心参观石窟，同时也是带着好奇心开始研究敦煌学。</span></p></section><section><section><h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">
<span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">新华网：</strong></span>曾经有一种说法‘敦煌在中国，敦煌学在国外’，经过40多年的潜心研究，您现在如何看待这句话？ </h2></section></section><section><section><h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">
<strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">郑炳林：</strong>我们现在不害怕国外的研究超越我们，我们要让敦煌学回归，又把敦煌学推出去，把敦煌学变成世界的敦煌学，人类的敦煌学。</h2></section></section><section><section><section><img class="rich_pages wxw-img" width="100%" src="https://mmbiz.qpic.cn/mmbiz_jpg/qYctaqVmvuAxpG7gfiaHA9eb0671FWFu7ogA6tZETicft4e9ibrdJkINHe22ODz9t5B9ic0Wp5o1dQsro2SYtMnx7Q/640?wx_fmt=jpeg&amp;tp=wxpic&amp;wxfrom=5&amp;wx_lazy=1&amp;wx_co=1" alt="图片" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; vertical-align: middle; height: auto !important; width: 677px; visibility: visible !important;"></section></section></section><section><p style="text-indent: 2em;"><span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">这句话的来源有很多种说法，但是也反映了当时一种实际情况。在敦煌莫高窟藏经洞打开以后敦煌学就兴起了，中国学者比如罗振玉、王国维先生最初接触敦煌学那个阶段，应该说中国敦煌学的研究和世界是同步的，但是逐渐开始滞后。“敦煌在中国，敦煌学在国外”这种表述大家都认为既是一种实际情况，也是对中国学术界的一种刺激，激励了大家一定要进行赶超。在这种心理驱使下，成立了中国敦煌吐鲁番学会，敦煌学研究从无序状态变成有序状态，有计划进行。实际上经过这40年的敦煌学研究，已经实现了赶超。赶超之后，大家的心态从原来的不平衡逐渐就自信了。我们现在不害怕国外的研究超越我们，我们要让敦煌学回归，又把敦煌学推出去，把敦煌学变成世界的敦煌学，人类的敦煌学。</span></p></section><section><section><section><p style="text-indent: 2em;"><span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;"><br style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;"></span></p></section></section></section><section><section><h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">
<span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">新华网：</strong></span>择一事终一生，一辈子研究敦煌，会不会觉得枯燥？</h2></section></section><section><section><h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">
<strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">郑炳林：</strong>做研究，一定要有始有终，给每件事情画上句号，把这个事情干到能力范围内的最好。</h2></section></section><section><section><section><img class="rich_pages wxw-img" width="100%" src="https://mmbiz.qpic.cn/mmbiz_png/qYctaqVmvuAxpG7gfiaHA9eb0671FWFu7XFmvpgt9tMdZflFJka4yK5VouZ3RCHRmPBsQLKbwVEZrE02JJo3wEw/640?wx_fmt=png&amp;tp=wxpic&amp;wxfrom=5&amp;wx_lazy=1&amp;wx_co=1" alt="图片" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; vertical-align: middle; height: auto !important; width: 677px; visibility: visible !important;"></section></section></section><section><p style="text-indent: 2em;"><span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">研究敦煌学确实枯燥，整天跟文献打交道，但是当一个问题得以解决的时候，甚至一个字突然释读出来了，心情激动得恨不得跳起来。我们做了一个大项目叫《敦煌通史》，这个《通史》卡着我们最难做的是两汉部分，研究两汉部分的材料，除了《史记》《汉书》《后汉书》以外，就只有简牍了。于是我就拼命读简牍，最终完成了50万字的《敦煌通史》两汉卷。截至今年，《敦煌通史》七卷本整个就推出来了。于是这么多年我也养成了一种心理，不敢离开书房，不能离开书，否则我就有一种恐惧感，感觉和别人的差距会越来越大。我们做研究，一定要有始有终，给每件事情画上句号，把这个事情干到能力范围内的最好。</span></p></section><section><section><h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">
<span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">新华网：</strong></span>全世界敦煌遗书多达7万余卷，您还关注了碑铭赞，并完成了数百万字的《碑铭赞辑释》，碑铭赞蕴含了什么样的文物价值和史学价值？</h2>
<h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">
<strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">郑炳林：</strong>通过这个研究，要把晚唐五代敦煌历史到底是什么样弄清楚。</h2></section></section><section><section><section><img class="rich_pages wxw-img" width="100%" src="https://mmbiz.qpic.cn/mmbiz_jpg/qYctaqVmvuAxpG7gfiaHA9eb0671FWFu7UbxEgjg3CKJ9vc3SY6WAlhCojLTHmbNahnyxFUGx2WricC5YxN7fONQ/640?wx_fmt=jpeg&amp;tp=wxpic&amp;wxfrom=5&amp;wx_lazy=1&amp;wx_co=1" alt="图片" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; vertical-align: middle; height: auto !important; width: 677px; visibility: visible !important;"></section></section></section><section><p style="text-align: left; text-indent: 2em;"><span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">这是一个研究方向的转变。我最开始研究敦煌文书是在1983年左右，中国敦煌吐鲁番学会刚成立，我研究的是医学文献。1984年我转到了研究历史地理方向。要把敦煌的历史地理弄清楚，就得借助敦煌人物传记、历史文献。记载最多的就是碑铭赞，也就是碑文、墓志铭、邈真赞。大概1992年底《敦煌碑铭赞辑释》第一版出版了，当时学术界也是公认的研究水平比较高。后来我感觉到还是有些不足，在2010年前后进行重新校订，于2019年又出了第二版。通过这个研究，要把晚唐五代敦煌历史到底是什么样弄清楚。研究无止境，现在我已经开始做第三版了。</span></p></section><section><section><h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; text-align: left; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">
<span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">新华网：</strong></span>第六届敦煌文博会即将召开，这是文化交流的盛会。古丝路上的人文交流带给我们哪些启示？</h2>
<h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; text-align: left; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">
<strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">郑炳林：</strong>从考古和文献来看，中国和世界的交流早已有之。</h2></section></section><section><section><section><img class="rich_pages wxw-img" width="100%" src="https://mmbiz.qpic.cn/mmbiz_jpg/qYctaqVmvuAxpG7gfiaHA9eb0671FWFu7EYgWddqAuH8CYRAZufgeQXD0qrbRBMw40klo30DTW41icOyCw8kqM3g/640?wx_fmt=jpeg&amp;tp=wxpic&amp;wxfrom=5&amp;wx_lazy=1&amp;wx_co=1" alt="图片" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; vertical-align: middle; height: auto !important; width: 677px; visibility: visible !important;"></section></section></section><section><p style="text-indent: 2em;"><span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">我们如果从考古来说，在马家窑文化、齐家文化，特别是玉门的火烧沟文化遗址，那个时期咱们跟中亚地区已经开始交流了。玉门火烧沟遗址出土的文物体现的冶炼技术，就是从中亚地区传来的。所以在这个阶段中国和西方交流是非常密切的，这是从考古上来说。从文献来说，有一部书叫《穆天子传》。穆天子（周穆王）生活的年代是公元前900多年，文献记载穆天子在即位后十五年到十七年之间到过罗布泊地区，到过敦煌地区。还有一个文献叫《山海经》，有人认为这是神话故事，但是它记载了罗布泊，记载了敦煌。通过现在的研究，实际上它是最早的一部地理文献，在那个阶段中国人的地理观念已经沿着丝绸之路到达罗布泊地区，到达帕米尔高原。</span></p></section><section><section><h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">
<span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">新华网：</strong></span>一代人有一代人的使命，您认为未来怎样能让更多的人投身到敦煌学研究中来？</h2>
<h2 style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 16px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">
<strong style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">郑炳林：</strong>敦煌学研究，有两个方面，一方面要进行高深精的研究，另一个方面就是要普及这些高深精的研究成果。</h2></section></section><section><section><section><img class="rich_pages wxw-img" width="100%" src="https://mmbiz.qpic.cn/mmbiz_jpg/qYctaqVmvuAxpG7gfiaHA9eb0671FWFu7JAfb1gnJiaB9GRRxPc0q6wx9P2Aic9MhjTL5kS0mADczI4HyJjOXP1Fw/640?wx_fmt=jpeg&amp;tp=wxpic&amp;wxfrom=5&amp;wx_lazy=1&amp;wx_co=1" alt="图片" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important; vertical-align: middle; height: auto !important; width: 677px; visibility: visible !important;"></section></section></section><section><section><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; min-height: 1em; text-indent: 2em; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;"><span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; max-width: 100%; box-sizing: border-box; overflow-wrap: break-word !important;">我想敦煌学研究，有两个方面。一方面要进行高深精专的研究，我们要把敦煌放在世界背景下。比如我们看汉代的敦煌，不仅仅看敦煌郡，我们还要看西汉通过敦煌郡经营青藏地区、蒙古高原、西域地区，包括天山南北，如何通过这个区域抵达中亚地区，打通国际交流的通道。我们要把它变成一个大背景下的敦煌。人类的敦煌，世界的敦煌应该就是国际视野下的敦煌。另一个方面就是要普及这些高深精专的研究成果，通过了解敦煌实际上也是了解中国。中国发展离不开世界，世界的发展也离不开中国。我们现在谈自信，是有国家的强盛做后盾，我们做起研究来才更有保障。</span></p></section></section><p><br></p>
<p style="text-indent: 2em;">原文链接：http://gs.news.cn/fangtanlu/2023/zbl/index.htm</p>
			
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